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Time Stamps: 

  • 00:47 – 02:10 – Julian’s Story
  • 02:40 – 03:37 – The evolution of data-driven sales over the past decade
  • 04:02 – 05:52 – How to become a data-driven business
  • 06:18 – 07-20 – Building the Revenue Operations plan and the team at Procurify
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  • 12:02 – 15:21 – How to demonstrate the ROI of Revenue Operations
  • 16:04 – 20:10 – How to use insights to improve the performance of your sales team 
  • 21:02 – 23:11 – How to close more deals AND be data-driven
  • 23:47 – 27:15 – How Procurify are approaching the headwinds from 2023
  • 27:20 – 28:36 – Using flexible terms to improve customer retention
  • 28:40 – 30:20 – Julian’s Book Recommendation

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Transcript

You can’t replicate the performance of your top performers. They’re different people. You can’t replicate a person. We’re not clones. But what you can do is you can try to identify some of the things that may well be important in the way that they behave that could be replicated.

So in other words, you go and look at, well, what are some of the indicators that tell me that this salesperson is performing well?

Welcome to Revenue Insights. Every week, we’ll be joined by revenue leaders from some of the most successful and highest growing companies.

Together, we explore how they built their revenue teams, the journeys that they’ve been on, and the lessons they have learned along the way. Revenue Insights is brought to you by Epstor. We’re a revenue intelligence platform designed to help revenue teams to build more pipeline, close more deals, and retain more customers. Hello there. You are listening to Revenue Insights.

Today, I’m joined by Julian Hannibus. He’s the director of revenue operations over at Pecurify. He previously worked at Vidyard, Hootsuite, and plenty of others as well.

Julian, lovely to meet you.

Yeah, welcome.

Hey, thanks very much. You’ve got a great story, or certainly that I’ve seen, going back through your LinkedIn. It’s always good to hear a friendly, familiar accent for me of a project.

And although I know that you’ve kind of been based in Vancouver for a while, so for anyone that hasn’t met or heard you before, could you give them a little more color around your background and where you’re working now?

Sure.

Yes, I’ve been mostly working in the tech industry, software industry, for getting on 40 years now. Most recently, in the last 20 years, I’ve been based in software companies in North America, most recently with a company called Pecurify, where I’m running the revenue operations team. And really over the past 20 years or so, I’ve been involved in various guides of what is now known as revenue operations.

And so helping organizations who have been involved in various aspects of the software industry. So a lot of my background has been wide and varied, but mostly within that software space.

I did originally start off as a teacher and moved into things such as creating technical manuals, documenting sea routines, very exciting things like that, moved into areas such as product development, worked for a while on support lines, doing some consultancy, doing some sales, pre-sales work, doing some channel management.

A lot of these things have really helped me, as you can probably guess, in terms of the revenue operations function, having experience of lots of different aspects of software organizations and how they run themselves.

So, yes, that’s a lot of my background. And to say I’ve been mostly involved in sales operations, customer operations, marketing operations, and now revenue operations for some time. So you’ve really been along the journey, revenue operations as a role, but also as a phenomenon almost, as relatively new in the grand scheme of things.

What perhaps has been the most striking part of that journey that you’ve seen through your career of really B2B companies becoming more data driven, becoming more analytical?

I think there’s two areas here. One is obviously the technology has improved to such a degree that you can do a lot of the things you’d really love to have been able to do a long time ago.

Now, of course, you can do these things with ease. There’s lots of really great solutions out there if you put your mind to it to find things that will help you get along that data driven journey. But I think it probably equally important is the importance that senior leadership inside organizations now places on building their business around analytics.

It’s no good if you don’t have that buy in to where the leaders are actually going to listen to what you’re saying and listen to what the data is telling them. So I think those two things have got to go together.

And in fact, I think that that second one is more important, that desire for leadership to be understanding and looking at what’s happening in their organizations and using data to help form those decisions. I think those two things go hand in hand. So I think those two things have really been essential.

Do you think that is, and I appreciate in probably the role that you’re in now, you’re probably at a place where you’ve got that buy in, right?

You know, your senior leadership, they’re brought into the idea of using data and they’ve got access to good data to be able to get the insights to make those decisions.

Do you think that’s the case across a lot of businesses?

What do you think are some of the challenges that a number of businesses are facing that’s perhaps preventing them getting there?

Well, I can’t imagine many senior leaders who are kind of blind to the need to be data driven. I think there may be a few dinosaurs around there who believe that everything is always seat of the pants and everything is done by feel. I think we all know people who probably have had that attitude, but I think they’re few and far between between these days.

So I think the challenge now is certainly for somebody in revenue operations is to get those senior leadership people to have the trust in you that they can go to you and ask you, what is this data telling me?

And not just ask for the data, but ask for your interpretation of the data. Because one thing of course is data and the other one is the interpretation.

How does it now apply to our business on a day to day basis?

You know, what do I actually do with this data?

What do I do differently tomorrow than I’m doing today?

So I mean, I think that is that is something which is not necessarily always there. They may say I want to be data driven, but then they don’t know how to be data driven. They don’t know what it means. They think that being data driven is having huge, huge, vast amounts of data thrown at them.

But what does it actually change on the ground?

Does it actually change the behavior of the organization?

Does it help the organization become better?

Does it help the organization achieve its goals?

I think that that’s sometimes what is missing is just overload of data without it actually being meaningful. People feel that I need this data because if I don’t have it, I’m not doing my job properly. But then they kind of blind to what I actually now do with this. This conversion metric has gone from this to this.

So what?

OK, they may kick and fuss about it, but it doesn’t actually change the behavior in any kind of a way. So I think that’s an area in which I think we still got to do a lot of work is how do you actually make that data actionable and change the organization moving forward in the right direction.

I’m interested to know what the kind of state of play was like when you joined Procurify.

Was it a few years ago now?

Was it in a situation where it’s like, OK, we’ve got our CRM, we’ve got a huge bloated tech stack.

Was it actually running quite well and you were coming in to optimize it further?

What was it like?

There was no real operational function. There were silos.

I mean, it wasn’t a particularly huge organization. There are about 100 people working inside it, but it got a fair size of tech stack as a lot of organizations do.

You know, they’re sitting on a Salesforce, Marketo, Gainsight style tech stack. Very traditional, but nobody really bringing these things together.

So I had to do a lot of work to work out, look, what is actually driving this company forward?

What are the processes that we actually need to build to make the company move forward?

You know, it’s a very typical scenario where people have grown up within their own parts of the organization, but there’s nothing linking them together. So fortunately, the CEO was very forward thinking and got some good advisors who said, look, you really need to get somebody to come in and try and pull all this stuff together.

So really, there was nothing there and I had to build it from scratch. Now we’ve got a pretty strong functioning revops team that I think is one of the best around.

I’m interested to know that that journey of transformation from kind of where you were to where you are now, what does that process look like?

And realistically, how long does it take?

Because I’m conscious that people that will be listening to this will be at different stages of that journey, some perhaps at a similar state and others perhaps at the beginning of that journey. Because I know what it’s like internally for us at Epster, it’s this big job here. So interested to know someone who’s kind of gone through that and come out the other end, what the process is like.

Yeah, I’ve done it a few times now. There’s a couple of different approaches to it.

The first thing you’ve got to do is assess what type of organization do you feel that you need to build?

You have to do an element of planning. It’s not just haphazard. You’ve got to do some elements of planning and you’ve got to take into account what are the skills and the capabilities that actually exist within the organization today and what doesn’t. There’s a couple of ways of building this and I’ve used both of these before.

One is that you can go and say, look, what I want to do is I want to go and build a team of people and that team of people are going to have a particular skill set. And the skill sets that I want are going to be X, Y and Z.

So maybe what I want is I want somebody who is skilled in project management, because we’ve got a lot of projects and processes that we need to build. I need a really good project manager. Maybe I need a good number cruncher. Maybe one of the needs is that we need a data analyst because we feel that we need to become better driven by the metrics.

Maybe one of the things that we really need is somebody who’s a really good process person, somebody who can draw together and build business processes. Maybe what I need is an enablement person because we’ve got a lot of really good stuff. But nobody knows how to behave. Maybe I need an enablement.

So you need to look around and think, look, what are the kind of skills that I need?

And there’s two ways of building this. Either you can, as I said, you can get somebody who’s got those particulars of a project manager, a trainer, data analyst and build your team around those. Or you can say, well, actually, what I really need is I need somebody who really understands the marketing aspect of our organization. And I need somebody who understands the customer success part.

I need somebody who understands the way that sales happens. So you can either go down that kind of line of business route and get experts in this line of business and bring them all together.

Say, all right, OK, OK, right. We need a process to improve the way that leads coming through marketing and getting to the sales team to deal with. All right.

Marketing, ops, person, sales.

You two work it out, right?

And hopefully, if they’re good enough, they should have some of those project management and process skills to build that together. So you can build it either way. Either you go the line of business route or you go the kind of expert behavior route. But whatever it is, you need to ensure you’ve got enough people to give that coverage so they know what to do and they know how to do it.

If either of those fail, it ain’t going to work. If you can have a lot of people who’ve got great ideas but have no idea how to execute, it’s no good.

Again, if you’ve got people who are really good at executing but they’re really bad at coming up with the ideas, again, it’s not going to work. So you’ve got to look very, very carefully for the right people. And either you’ll find them inside the organization already and in many organizations, they do have these functions happening already. They’re just maybe sitting in other parts of the org. They’re not brought together.

Or you need to set out a business plan to go and recruit them. That’s where you’ve got to try and justify revenue operations to the people who are holding onto the budgets to try to bring in the people that you think you’re going to need. Which is where you need that two, three-year plan.

Say, look, this is where we need to get to and match that to the company’s growth pattern and where the revenue is and try and build up your business case there.

So really, those are the ways that I tend to build the team is go into it.

What’s my long-term plan?

How am I going to plug people in?

What kind of structure do I want?

Do I want a line of business structure or do I want a skill structure?

And how am I going to be able to justify this to get hold of the budget and the resources over the next few years to go and build in association with what the company’s goals are going to be?

I’m really interested to know a little more about the business plan that you mentioned there. Something that comes up a lot in the podcast is really getting the buy-in into revenue operations and being able to demonstrate the ROI on it almost right.

If you want to spend $60,000 hiring someone, where am I getting that back for $2 for every one that I put in, for example?

So for you, by the size of having been there and done it, what does that business plan need to look like to really justify revenue operations to expand it and grow it to be able to hit the goals that you want to achieve?

It’s always got to be couched in terms of what the people who are holding the budget are going to understand.

I mean, you have to tailor your requests to what they want to hear. So you’ve got to tailor it in terms that they’re going to understand. So depending on who you need to convince, you’re going to be looking for what are the metrics that you within revenue operations are going to change that is going to pick up their ears and be like, oh, yeah, that’s really important.

So part of the justification is, hey, I want to grab a little bit of the marketing budget here. I think I can maybe I need somebody who can help coordinate marketing operations on my team here.

Then, of course, you’re going to the VP of Marketing and say, OK, well, OK, what’s it going to be to you if we can improve the lead to opportunity conversion rate by an extra 5% by putting somebody in who’s going to be optimizing your lead flows, cleaning your data, who’s going to be ensuring that the processes are clean, that all the exceptional reporting is done.

What is that extra 5% going to mean to you?

And if that it means, oh, well, actually, that’s going to help me attain my goals of hitting the pipeline targets or hitting whatever, you know, whatever other targets are inside. And we can then say, well, actually, that’s going to mean in terms of revenues to the company is X and you’re there.

Now, those kind of calculations are very easy to do.

Obviously, the actual accounts, the calculation is easy. You have to try and use their numbers.

They look, would you do you think we can affect a 5%?

OK, well, what if it’s 4%?

What if it’s 2%?

Are we still justified there?

Now, you can do that until the cows come home, but they’re not necessarily was going to be. And you and I and probably most of the people on this call know that most are our calculations are actually fiction. They’re just fairy tales. Most are our calculation, just fairy tales. But they can be a fairy tale that can stick.

So that’s usually how I justify it and saying, look, these are the metrics that we think we can affect. We think this is a good thing for the company. If you want, we can try and put a monetary value on it. But actually, things are sometimes beyond the pure immediate monetary value. There are things that we need to scale.

OK, if you want to grow, you know, 100% in the next 24 months, we have to scale the company. So it’s not always down to ROI. It’s meeting company goals.

If you want to scale, how are we going to manage to do that without somebody doing this for you?

Right. If you want to become data driven, you’ve got no data. You’ve got to have somebody. So some things are kind of beyond ROI calculations. It’s like things such as an email. Everybody needs an email system. There’s no ROI on your email system. It’s just there. You just need it. So I think that’s how I would approach it in terms of justifying. It’s know your audience.

Who’s holding onto the purse strings?

Can you align yourself to the overall corporate strategy, which is the best way of doing it?

It’s better than an ROI calculation because an ROI calculation, people can pick holes in it.

If it’s aligned with a long term company strategy and you can build yourself into the plan, say, look, if you’re going to expand the sales team there, let’s go and add an extra operational person to support them and to ensure that they can, you know, each of those salespeople can shave five percent off their time spent in creating quotations.

So I would do it that I would tend to do it that way as the justification. And so far, it generally seems to work. And the best way I found is that is aligning to corporate strategy and aligning to line of business strategy. Once you kind of get down from the CEO CFO level, I actually really liked how simple you actually described that.

And something that I want to dive into and maybe get more into the into the weeds of things from your experience and a lot of the data that you’ve handled and in particular, looking at it through the lens of sales teams from the analytical perspective, what do you see in terms of the trends that you work with that differentiate, you know, the top performing sales reps that work with your business from, let’s say, the rest of the pack?

What are those indicators that you see that really stands out?

Yeah, trying to identify something that you mean, the reason why people often want to do that is they think they can replicate it. That’s why you do it.

Say, OK, as a top performer and you read it in so in so many books that what you want to do is replicate the performance of your top performance.

No, you can’t. You can’t replicate the performance of your top performers. They’re different people. You can’t replicate a person.

You know, we’re not clones. So but what you can do is you can try to identify some of the things that may well be important in the way that they behave that could be replicated.

So in other words, you go and look at, well, what are some of the indicators that tell me that this salesperson is performing well?

And what do we mean by performing well?

I mean, usually everybody says, look, do they hit their sales blow away their their sales quota?

Do they blow away their numbers?

Depending on the business that you’re in, it can take a hell of a long time to actually know that, you know, depend.

You know, if you’ve got a sales cycle of nine months to a year, you don’t know whether somebody’s been successful. So they’ve been with you for two years, really, right, because it takes the first sale happens in a year’s time. And then you’ve got a year to go and prove out what they can do. Two years.

No, that’s too long. So you need to be looking for indications of what does good look like in terms of how they behave.

So what do they do in terms of how well they deal with the leads that they’re given?

You know, are they the type of person who just give me a few leads and I’ll close them all?

Or do they like vast quantities of things to filter through?

What we found is that that sometimes you get somebody who’s got exactly the same result. They’re both absolutely top performers in terms of they sell a lot of your stuff. But you then go and look at down the down the funnel and you find they’ve got completely different behaviors. We’ve got one sales rep who’s got an absolutely abysmal conversion rate of the leads you give them and converting them into their pipeline.

Absolutely abysmal. But once it gets there, she wins everything. Right. Anything that moves, she wins it. But she behaves in a very different way. And we’ve got another rep who is entirely the opposite. They accept everything that moves into their pipeline and then they only close a small percentage of them. The end result is the same.

So which one is right?

Which one does that does that sales manager say be like that person?

It could be either. So you have to be aware of trying to draw too much out of a single point of data and say, look, everybody be like this person. It doesn’t work like that. You have to you really have to go and look at the holistic set of metrics around that individual and see where they seem to be falling.

And then it’s a skill and judgment thing to say, OK, now we’ve got the metrics.

What things seem to be important for that person?

You’ve got to personalize it. It’s very difficult to do it across the board because trying to impose your own patterns on a set of individuals who behave in different ways and who are kind of incented in different ways is going to be a recipe for failure.

So I think it’s a lot of it is down to the skills of the sales management team, sales leadership team to be able to take that data and apply it to individuals, coach those individuals and make them better. Where they feel that they need better. They know best where they feel that they need to improve. Right. You can’t just say, by the way, this metric for you is really bad.

That doesn’t work.

Look, where do you know, because all salespeople want to sell more. So they know where they’re falling down. So you can help guide them along the way and you can use the numbers to then coach them and say, well, let’s go and improve this one. And you feel that what you’re failing at is X.

Well, this is where that number is right now. Let’s go and see if we can go and move this number from here to here with you, because that will be a good indicator. And then you can tell me where at the end you think that’s actually being effective.

Is that making you better?

Do you feel that you’re doing your job better?

So those are the kind of things that I would bring into play there. I think that’s a really good point. And what I’m interested in is you perhaps have an example of how in from a revenue operations role, you might run some of that analysis, look at some of that behavior, identify.

Okay, really interesting like learnings here. How you then feed that into the sales team, because it’s obviously fairly prescriptive, right, in terms of the individual and how you’re coaching on them.

So, so often I find speaking to guests on the podcast is that it’s all well and good to having the data and having the insight.

But the real crux of it then is how do I now ultimately execute on this?

How do I deliver this in a way that someone’s going to go, oh, yeah, that’s a really good point.

And actually, that’s really going to help me rather than why am I being told what to do?

I know, I know best.

Yeah, there’s definitely a balance there.

I mean, the salesperson has got to be very self-aware and they’ve got to be understand where they think their failings are, you know, where they could be better. And the sales manager has also got to be able to pinpoint those areas and then know what to do about it.

It’s all well and good to say, oh, by the way, for some reason, you know, the size of contracts that you close is only half the size of what we think it should be. That can be a very much of a so what thing. So the skill has got to be common.

Well, what do you actually do about it?

What is that?

What are we now going to do to help that salesperson to be able to close bigger deals or whatever that fact is?

And that’s where the skill of the salesperson then then comes in. So that’s it. So revenue operations role there is to draw attention to those things, to support the sales leadership in what they think they need to understand about the behaviors of the people who are within their teams.

And then to help those sales leaders measure any progress that’s being made, if it’s a quantifiable measure that they’re looking at, such as, OK, well, you know, maybe one of the things that we want to do is improve the way that they have conversations with the salesperson. Maybe they need to kind of multi thread some of the discussions they’re having instead of just sending one person that needs lots of it.

So some of it is not necessarily quantifiable. Some of it is qualitative as well. So the revenue operations person has got to know where they stop, really, and where you really have to then hand that over and say, OK, sales leadership. We’ve done our part in this. Now it’s down to the skills that you’ve got in developing your people. And we’ll be there to back you up.

If you think you want resources, you want enablement, you want training.

Yeah, we can do that. If you want to start measuring things to go and see if people are making progress and don’t have to wait six months to see the results.

Yeah, we can do that. So you’ve got to be very open to what the leadership thinks they need to drive their people forwards. Something that I should caveat to listeners that we’re recording this in kind of middle of January 2023. Something that I’m just interested to dig into is with we’re heading into uncertain times, right, particularly for probably both of us working in SAS.

From your role in revenue operations, what are you doing perhaps differently this year compared to certainly some of the beginning of last year and even the year before that to kind of prepare for some of the headwinds that certainly feel like they’re coming in 2023?

Yeah, I think that one of the things we you need to do is kind of think, well, what could those headwinds actually be?

And you’ve got to kind of match it to your own organization. So there’s certain parts of our business, I think, are going to be more effective than others. Fortunately, the solutions that we sell are a little bit, they’re kind of very much in demand these days.

You know, we’re seeing quite a lot of growth because, you know, our software helps organizations manage their spend. So for organizations who are trying to reduce their budgets and spend less, we’re actually attractive proposition. So what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to manage two things. On the sales side, we’re seeing quite rapid growth. We’re seeing a lot of people who are interested in getting our solution.

So from one side of our business, we’ve got to help manage growth, which is a very different challenge from within our customer base. So within our customer base, of course, you’ve got customers who their business is being very badly affected.

You know, they’re going out of business. They’re seeing huge, huge drops in their demand. We’re seeing that in terms of customer attrition. So it’s interesting because we’ve got two aspects. We’ve got growth on one side and we’ve got we’ve got the challenge of keeping customers on the other.

So it’s very much then look, how do we then deal with those two different scenarios?

What are the kind of things that we need to do to enable our frontline staff, whether in sales or customer success and support, to be able to go and either take advantage of the growth situation or to help mitigate the issues that customers may come across.

So within the customer side, that’s where it’s kind of burning a lot right now is, OK, well, do we need to kind of change some of our processes and some of the ways that we make our office to our clients?

Do we need to start creating, for example, lower cost packages or ways that customers can reduce their commitment to us in a smooth way?

So instead of just saying, you know, because we’re in SaaS, we’re in the SaaS business, you know, customers renew every year. So they’re saying, by the way, time for you to renew.

No, let’s go and have those discussions much earlier about what the kind of effects are that those that the customers are under and come up with and revenue operations can help come up with ways of offering customers, you know, different ways of paying different structures, different wording on the contracts, you know, kind of ways of opting out, maybe ways of reducing their commitments and then bringing it back up again.

So creating processes, creating technology solutions that allow our frontline staff to then take advantage of that and go to the customer, say, look, here’s some things that we can talk about. And we know that the back end, we can support those. We’ve got ways of doing business that are going to be good for us and hopefully then will help the customers get through the scenarios.

So we’re having to think creatively about how we operationalize and think about packages and pricing and approaches to the customers. So I’ve got somebody who’s a specialist in customer success operations on my team, who’s at liaison point is listening very carefully to what the customers are saying to our customer success managers and then coming back to say, look, it sounds like we’re seeing this scenario a lot.

Let’s go and create a process around this kind of scenario that we can then roll out and help, you know, make it a little bit easier for our customers to stay with us.

Is there perhaps one example from that that you’re seeing really starting to see results in terms of reducing that attrition?

Yeah, we are. I think one of the most important ones that we found is kind of flexibility in terms, giving instead of holding people to typically 12 month contract and your upfront, then being more flexible in the ways that we offer terms to people.

Okay, well, we’ll change the billing, so it will help your cash flow a little bit easier. Things such as looking very carefully at the customers usage patterns coming from kind of our big data set and go and look at their usage patterns and trying to predict, hey, it looks like this customer is starting to reduce their usage of our solution.

Maybe we need to be a little bit more forward thinking and go to the customer in advance and say, look, is there something that we probably want to talk about now?

It looks like you’re reducing your usage of the system.

Do you want to maybe reduce some of your commitment to it?

So kind of get in front of them, just say, okay, I’ve got this bill from ProcureFi. I can’t pay this bill. Let’s just go and cancel.

No, we’re trying to be a little bit. So where we’re able to help is like providing some of that information to the customer success managers so they can be a little bit more forward thinking in how they can deal with their customers. If it seems that they’re having, if the customer coming across issues. Let me ask one final question to you, Julian.

If there is one book that you would recommend to other revenue leaders, revenue operations leaders, which one would it be?

This one is always a controversial one with me. I’m not a reader of business books.

I mean, when I get to the end of a day when I’ve just been doing, you know, working on business and thinking about all the operations, the last thing I want to do is read more about it.

So, and I’ve also also there’s an awful lot of magical thinking in a lot of business books that I have bothered to read. So I’m not a general person who recommends business books, which is sacrilege.

I know, you know, I would say at the end of the day, get away from business. Go and read a good biography. Go and bury yourself in escapism.

But, you know, someone tried to nail me down, say you have to name a business book that you enjoyed and did have an effect on either. There is just the one actually.

Yeah, it’s called Selling with Noble Purpose by Lisa McLeod. She’s been very interesting to work with over the years. And I often refer back to some of the sections within that book and some of the broad areas of interest in that. So I think it does summarize very much my approach to business. This concept that you’ve got to have some reason for doing something.

You’ve got to feel that what you’re doing is important. You’ve got to feel that you really want to help your customers. And that thing really resonates with me. So that specific book and the way that Lisa approaches business is something I would highly recommend.

So yeah, Selling with Noble Purpose by Lisa McLeod.

I feel like I have to ask, what about a fictional book for escapism?

You know, when you’ve had a rough day stuck in a spreadsheet.

Oh, right. Right. Right now I’m just traipsing my way through all the Richard Osmonds.

So yeah, great escapism. Yes. It will teach you something about British culture as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Pure escapism will do me nicely. Yeah. Fantastic.

Well, Julian, it’s been lovely to have some of your time and to pick your brain.

For everyone listening, if they want to learn a little bit more from you, perhaps connect and ask any questions, where can they find you?

Well, obviously, you can find me on LinkedIn.

Yeah, I do respond to messages on LinkedIn. Send me a message over LinkedIn is the easiest way to get hold of me. I’d advise you use that. Excellent.

Well, thank you so much again. We’ll put a link to that down into the show notes as well. And to everyone that’s listened, thank you so much. Yeah.

Well, thank you, Lee, for your time. It’s been really interesting with the questions that you’ve been asking and hopefully your listeners have found some new interest there. Thanks so much. If you found it interesting, you can send Julian a message and let him know. Thank you