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The Four Levers to Accelerate Deal Velocity with Loren Brockhouse, CRO at BigHand

In this episode of the Revenue Insights Podcast, host Lee Bierton speaks with Loren Brockhouse, CRO at BigHand. BigHand gives organizations the tools and data to enhance key productivity metrics and create value for the business, its employees, and clients. Loren shares insights into the four levers companies can use to drive deal velocity while optimizing expenses across sales and marketing. He also shares strategies for change management at sales-led organizations to pivot toward revenue management. Loren also touches on the importance of building relationships of depth and width with clients and shares strategies for doing more with less in the current challenging environment.

Loren has over thirty years of experience in sales, marketing, and revenue operations. He mentions that his goal is to build the most respected consultative revenue team in the Legal Tech space by incorporating processes & strategies built around Empathy, Social Selling, Why Statements, and Strength Finders. Loren’s key skills pivot around building an exceptional culture that attracts & retains the best talent while motivating them to get better each day.

Loren’s Book Recommendations: Atomic Habits by James Clear and Deep Work by Cal Newport

Time Stamps:

  • 00:45 – 01:58 – Loren’s backstory
  • 02:24 – 04:33 – How does Loren leverage his experience while managing revenue teams?
  • 05:18 – 07:51 – The four growth levers to drive deal velocity
  • 08:43 – 10:50 – Identifying high-impact factors that accelerate deal velocity
  • 15:59 – 17:00 – Driving change and a pivot to revenue operations at sales-led organizations
  • 17:27 – 20:00 – Middle of the funnel strategies that accelerate conversion
  • 20:30 – 22:33 – Coaching AEs to build relationships with clients and leads
  • 24:02 – 25:38 – Does driving change management evolve a company’s culture?
  • 26:19 – 28:40 – Doing more with less in a challenging sales environment
  • 29:04 – 32:00 – Loren’s book recommendations – Atomic Habits and Deep Work
  • Subscribe to the Revenue Insights Podcast:
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So I’m a big believer in optimizing the spend across sales and marketing and that, you know, you have to start with good data hygiene, you have to invest in it, it has to be a strategy and then you’ve got to rank your accounts on propensity to buy so you can guide your marketing.

Welcome to revenue insights every week, we’ll be joined by revenue leaders from some of the most successful and highest growing companies together. We explore how they built their revenue teams, the journeys that they’ve been on and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. Revenue insights is brought to you by. We’re a revenue intelligence platform designed to help revenue teams to build more pipeline, close more deals and retain more customers. Hello, there you are listening to revenue insights today. My guest is Lauren Brockhouse. He’s the chief revenue Officer at big hand, Lauren has built and managed revenue teams across the tech landscape for more than a decade. Lauren, great to chat to you today. Really excited to dig into things. Yeah, we

Appreciate the invitation and uh very excited to participate.

So I kind of alluded to it a little bit there. You’ve worked, you know, built and scaled teams across various different companies that um haven’t even scratched the surface of, I don’t think so for, for anyone listening, um who hasn’t come across you before. Could you tell them a little bit more about your story and how you got to where you are today?

Absolutely. Well, I probably like most uh revenue professionals. I stumbled into sales. I went to the University of Minnesota, you know, yay Golden Goers and uh was studying accounting. And as I was studying accounting, a mentor of mine who still is a mentor today, John very said there was a paid internship at AD P the payroll company $7 an hour and it was a B D R role. And as I was taking those three by five recipe cards or done in Brad Street cards as they were called before, there was Zoom Info. Uh I set appointments and once in a while I’ll be rewarded with uh getting to go on those appointments and we would sit down, we were selling small business. So it was a controller. CFO S didn’t exist at the time, sitting down with a controller, male, drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes. You could still smoke indoors at that time. And it looked like that controller didn’t, hadn’t been to the gym. And as I sat there, I thought this is really what I’m aspiring to be. Uh and I decided to change my major finance turn that B D R role into a full time sales role. And, uh, here I am as AC R O. Um, all these years later,

I, I feel like, um, I feel like we kind of jumped through a, a fairly long and probably meandering kind of career three sales to get you get to where you are now. So if you could, um, maybe describe um, what that kind of experience has taught you and how that experience has helped shape the way that you now run your revenue teams.

Yeah, my, my first boss was uh remote for me and he taught me the value of marketing. We would run email campaigns and mail campaigns through an A database which was a predecessor to sales source. So I learned very early in my career that creating demand or interest or awareness was very important. So I’m a big believer in optimizing this spend across sales and marketing. Many people, including investors like to grow by simply adding sales people. I believe that that um can create some friction, unnecessary friction in the buyer’s journey. Many buyers prefer to buy online and engage a sales person only when they’re ready to buy. So engaging a sales person too early creates friction. It’s also very expensive and and sales people by nature. If you’ve got good sales people, they’re urgent, so urgent and nurturing M Q L s and supporting a buyer’s journey. Um Don’t always jive. So I’m a big believer in optimizing the spend across sales and marketing. And that, you know, you have to start with good data hygiene. You have to invest in it, it has to be a strategy and then you’ve got to rank your accounts on propensity to buy. So you can guide your marketing and sales people towards those best opportunities. You’ve got, you use this um customer’s journey to dictate your sales coverage inside, outside G O product, etcetera. And then the thing that I’ve probably underappreciated until the last uh the last few years has been um you have to invest in revs and I define revs or revenue operations as sales and sales ops, which is your tech stack and then data insights. So you can make data driven decisions and absent a good rev ops function. I think most decisions that are made qualitatively and you push a lot of the work on your sales leaders which takes them away from coaching and developing and working deals with their team which ultimately cash you

Sales a lot in there. And, and I definitely want to dig into a lot of those individual points before we get into that. I’d just love to get um a kind of a, a, an example of what that begins to look like. So I think probably big hand is probably a fairly good uh example of this. So when you joined, was it in October last of last year? Um what did that process look like for you going in and taking that approach to building revenue teams? So how do you then look at it and go? OK. Now I’m gonna get the lay of the land and, and this is now the strategy that we’re going to follow. And therefore, then how do you then uh shape that uh the go to market approach to the way that you want to deliver it?

Yeah. And it really started before joining during the diligence process on my side and, and the the executive team and board for big hand, we determined what the four growth levels were gonna be and revs we agreed was going to be one of those growth levels. And when I think about the the priorities for rev up, first of all, we had to stand up the function. Fortunately, we had an internal candidate who has a um a lot of passion around technology and a lot of passion around process. And uh so a natural, a natural fit for and he has the uh historical context and history from big end. So a wonderful resource to help build our robots function around. The first thing that we decided to do is we needed to optimize our tech stack. And that starts with sales source. We hired a resource to start that optimization process. It needs to be an aid for our sales people to be more productive, not a deterrent. The second thing. And this is our, our focus here in uh this quarter is ensuring that we have good attribution data. And what I mean by that is knowing what marketing activities and what sales activities increase deal velocity and increase win rates. So we need to ensure sales force is set up to record those activities. We need to ensure our sellers are enabled and appreciate the need to track those activities. And then we need to start analyzing them to determine what assets, what types of activities have an impact on, on it growing and accelerating sales. Ideally, I can come back to a seller and say you’ve got £100,000 technology opportunity here. I see. You’ve got four people on the buying team with this product and this size opportunity, the buying team typically has seven buyers. So you’re missing three buyers that could be accurate or you could have unidentified buyers that are putting your deal at risk. Same way I can say, you know, you’re 90 days into this enterprise opportunity. The average enterprise opportunity closes in 88 days. What have we missed in the process? And if I’m having that conversation at day 90 that’s a miss on my part. I probably should have had that conversation earlier and again, using data and analytics to help our sellers do the right things to increase their velocity and win rates.

I love that. And uh the I’m really interested to dig into that attribution data and I think it’s something that’s um often overlooked in terms of not only where are we generating M Q L s from, but further down the line, what um what impact is that having on deal velocity and win rates? So, in your experience, and I appreciate this will be quite specific to big hand. Um uh probably two parts of this question. How do you go about calculating that? And how do you go about understanding, you know, which uh uh which sources are having the biggest impact on my deal velocity. And then the second part of that is what did you find were um uh uh were the factors that had the biggest impact? Yeah,

Great question. First of all, you have to track all sales and marketing activity, events, campaigns, paid media in all of your sales activities and start to analyze what’s having an impact. So it’s a pretty big lift on the revenue team to record all their activities. The first thing is the change management aspect. You have to convince them that that data or the results of their efforts would be valuable to them. And we’ve got a wonderful team that big hand. They’re, they’re not necessarily sales professionals, they are sales professionals, but they’re really business people. So they understand that we could go about growth in a couple of ways. Number one, we could do the traditional growth model of adding additional sales people, reducing their territories or we can invest in a more go to market, go go to market a more modern go to market strategy and invest in marketing and robots so we can make them more productive. The tradeoff then is we need you to help us make you more productive. So part of that is recording all activities. Part of that is ensuring that you’re getting better each day from a messaging and an industry expertise standpoint. So that’s how we approach the change management. Part of that was, you know, taking sales leadership and marketing leadership and saying, what do we believe the high value activities are then taking them to our revenue advisory board and say, which is made up of our um representative sellers and repres and sales engineers and sales leaders of each of our teams um from a product segment and geographical area and asking them to fine tune those high value activities. And then once we’ve agreed upon them, configuring sales force to support that. So we had sales leaders input, we had key stakeholders within the revenue organization’s input before we finalized it. So it’s been a very intentional change management path to get to gain buy-in, but it’s, it’s really not gaining buy-in, it’s helping them understand how it’s gonna help them and, and that takes time.

Hm. There’s a couple of bits in there and I think that’s, I love the way that you can fight down that process to get to that point. And then I guess what I’m really interested in is now you’ve got that information and now, you know, OK, these are the regions and the specific industries and perhaps even down to the point of, you know, these are the, this specific personas that are having the biggest impact on our deal velocity. Um What does that process look like then to actually get that implemented into your sales teams or your wider go to market teams? Um And, and how do you improve the adoption of that? Is it through um uh kind of your through the sales leadership or is it through process?

Yeah, it’s actually through both and we’re still in the stage of tracking, we need probably six months of information before we can confidently and quantitatively say, do this, don’t do that, do this, don’t do that. However, whenever we have qualitative information, like if you introduce, if you are able to get the chief operating officer into your sales process at this point versus this point, it speeds up your view velocity by X qualitatively, we’re having that experience and we socialize it in our monthly recognition meeting and we socialize it in our weekly team meetings. However, we want to get to a point where we can support that qualitative experience with a quantitative approach. But we’re, we’ve just started the data collection process le and we’re six months out from being able to have enough data to be able to quantitatively do that. But we celebrate the successes, we get together monthly and we celebrate the wins and we talk about how, what was the source of the lead and what was the key to moving that along? What did you learn from that process? Each time an opportunity is closed. I get an email notification from sales source. I reach out to the salesperson and ask them, what was the lead source? And what did you learn from that process? And then when there’s something um different or exciting, I will circulate that amongst the sales team and then sales leadership is celebrating via yammer and the wins as well. So we do a lot of social, socializing of those uh things that are working and those things that uh are leading to faster deal velocity and ultimately sales growth.

Nice. I’ll um I’ll have to reach back out to you in six months. Then when you’ve uh get the rest of the process and automation in place. Um So you, you’ve touched on a lot a, a lot on um kind of how you’re approaching things. Now, how would you say that approach has evolved particularly over the last 12 months?

Yeah, it’s become more, more data driven and um I’ve moved the focus from the bottom of the funnel to the middle of the funnel. And what I mean by that is marketing, owns the top of the funnel. They need to create awareness and M Q L s sales owns the bottom of the funnel which is working as sales qualify the leader and SQL to close. That still leaves the the biggest part of the funnel that mid funnel that sometimes marketing owns it, sometimes sales owns it. Yeah, if sales zones that you’re creating unnecessary friction in the process because sales people are urgent and not best um wired to nurture M Q L s plus they’re expensive. Plus that takes away selling time. Likewise, marketing doesn’t always have the dedicated focus on mid funnel because they’re trying to hit their M Q L goals. So what I’ve um increased my focus on in the past year is a bigger a a more mid funnel um strategy, intentional strategy investment to ensure we’re doing everything possible to nurture those M Q L s speed up the conversion process and um increase the conversion rate. That would be number one. And then part of that is making it a marketing function versus a sales function because I believe that’s more aligned with the buyer’s journey. And it also gives you an opportunity to increase the marketing budget and start to optimize that spin between sales and marketing as you want um accelerate your sales growth.

Well, to me as a marketer, it makes a lot of sense but um uh to, to, to say it is at home, maybe not as much. So what is the um I think probably the biggest thing to anyone listening. That’s going? Ok. That sounds really interesting. But how am I gonna do that? You know, sales led? We’re kind of very much that’s the way that we’re used to doing things. So, what would you recommend then of anyone that did want to adopt that approach? How would you start to prove the value of it? Um And, and, and how would you go about change management?

Yeah, great question. Number one, you have to believe it yourself. So if you grew up on the sales side of the house, which the majority of your C R Os did, and you’re gonna have to educate yourself and expose yourself to the power of marketing and the buyer’s journey. So that you believe, once you believe, you need to con um convince the executive team that that is the best approach going forward. And then once you’ve got executive team buyoff and funding, you then need to go to your sales leaders and convince them that we can grow faster and with less friction by investing in marketing, vice adding sales people. Once you have your sales leaders convinced, then you go to the sales team and say, do you want to make more money, which typically gets their attention and then you start to slow change management process of educating them how we’re going to do it?

Yeah. And you kind of touched on uh some of the areas that you’ve found to, to start to work. Could you elaborate a little bit more on some of the tactics and I guess more specific things that you have been doing in that middle of the funnel that you found has been really starting to work, that ultimately have been help uh helping your sales people to make more money.

Yeah, so, first of all, in the past, we’ve, we’ve uh piloted B D R s and we started with an outbound motion in our industry. Legal tech is, is uh bought, it’s not sold, it’s bought, it’s not sold. So an outbound motion has a limited R O Y. So we determined that we needed to go all in on inbound and increase inbound demand and set up a marketing development team, a marketing development rep team to support that. So the first thing that we did is we decided to put it on marketing for the reasons that um we believe it’s better alignment with the buyer. And we also believe that it will provide better feedback on M Q L quality, which ultimately is going to drive the most SQL S. Second thing that we did is rather than try and set it up um completely in house without any insight, we went out and found a very experienced MD R manager, someone who’s set up at least um three different organizations with the MD R functions. We wanted to hire an educate uh an experienced leader so we could have credibility from the start and we could also accelerate the process of setting it up and, and starting to, uh, show results and then it’s a constant education with the sales team and that, hey, hot leads are still gonna go directly to you. We’re not gonna slow them down. So if someone raises their hand and says, I wanna talk to a sales person, I wanna see a demo. Those are gonna go to the sales person. They’re, they’re sales qualified. They don’t need to be nurtured. And that’s what we want. Our sales people working on what we don’t want our sales people working on is someone who downloaded a white paper, someone who attended a webinar. It didn’t ask for a follow up. Those are the types of leads that we want to use the MD R team to nurture and then turn over to the sales team at the right time. Our sellers biggest responsibility or the biggest lever they can pull to drive more revenue is building deep wide relationships within their law firms. And that takes time and that takes um a focused relationship builder to make that happen and we don’t want it. We don’t want those relations that relationship time diluted by doing campaign nurturing and outreach.

I, I think it’s a really good point on the importance of relationships and appreciate that’s always going to be different based on the, on the, on the business. And obviously the, the, the companies that they’re ultimately targeting sounds like it’s crucial in, in, in your world and, and the businesses you’re targeting, what would you say are, um, or what do you recommend? In fact, how do you coach your, uh, your aes to be building those deep wide, you know, strong relationships within these target accounts to, uh, to ultimately be able to close.

Yeah, I think we’re naturally hiring people who appreciate relationship building, they appreciate the legal industry. Many of them have worked in law firms or have uh have some legal training in their background. So I think they’re naturally attracted to law firms and the industry. Number one, number two, what I’ve found where we can be most helpful is helping our sellers understand that the buying teams have grown in the last um Gartner research paper said that the average buying team is almost, it’s 6 to 10 people. And oftentimes when I’m looking at our opportunities in sales force, we have a much smaller buying team identified doesn’t mean that buying team isn’t in one note or outlook, but it’s not in sales force. And if it’s not in sales force and we cannot do any account based marketing, we cannot do any awareness, marketing to those. So number one, help our sellers realize that we need those contacts in their email in sales force. Number one, then number two, we took them through a strategic selling workshop where we said we have to identify the entire buying team. And if you don’t you’re putting your deal at risk from a win loss standpoint, you’re also probably slowing down your velocity. So it’s more about helping them realize there’s more people in that firm, they need to be building relationship with because the number of stakeholders that our products touch as we continue to explain, our portfolio is only growing. So the buying team is growing the number of buyers we touch because our product portfolio is growing is expanding. So they need to not only build deep relationships but they need to go broad. And that’s really what our our focus here is in F Y 24

Out of interest. Do you use a sales methodology to uh to help understand those different buyer roles and to help identify them as um opportunities are created in your

Pipeline. Yeah, the foundation that we set out this year with is strategic selling and some people will say, well, strategic selling is not current but about uh you know, medic what about challenger? Strategic selling is really the foundation that everything else is built on. And when I think about strategic selling, I think about three things. Number one is identify the entire buying team. Number two is identify the win results for each one of those buyers. And then number three is your red flags. A red flag is an unidentified buyer or an unidentified win result. And the goal in strategic selling is to reduce the number of red flags. So that’s the foundation that we’re building. Our, we’ve built our sales methodology on. Yeah,

That makes total sense. Um So in, obviously when you’re going into a, into a new business and you’re building up, you know, building this from scratch and we’ve touched on really changed management. I’m, I’m curious to understand, you know, particularly when you’re going into the business that, you know, you’ve got, you’re basically modernizing everything. How do you do that and still either maintain the same culture or evolve it into a new one?

Yeah, it would be very wrong and egotistical for me to say that I came to big hand in October and implemented a completely new go to market strategy because that’s absolutely not the case case. This the um leadership team had started down this path and it was, it was implementing a number of these initiatives. They weren’t going as fast as they wanted because I think they, they, the change management aspect was, was creating bigger road bumps than what was needed. So what I did was come in and prioritize the um growth levers and then ensure that we put enough energy behind the change management process to start to drive those growth levels. Now, I can sit here six months in after just completing our North American sales kickoff and say people are excited. And however, what’s most important is how excited they are in six months and even more important is where we finish March 31st of 2024 which will be, you know, the first, first fiscal year that I’m responsible for. But I simply took what was working, did some small modifications and then started to focus my energy around change management and execution. I’m a big believer in do less better because I think trying to do too many things really dilutes someone’s effectiveness and doesn’t allow anyone to be fulfilled in accomplishing things on a regular basis. Yeah,

Absolutely. And I, I, I’d imagine that approach also suits the, certainly the, the, the, the market conditions right now where, um, you know, obviously, as everyone knows, it’s become increasingly challenging to sell. And so of that approach of uh doing, uh, um, you know, doing more with less what have been some of the, um, some of the advice that you’ve perhaps passed down to your sellers in terms of uh how they can be more effective, you know, selling during an economic downturn and how they can be more efficient in the way that they are selling to accounts.

Yeah, first thing that we needed to do was to recognize how many of our sales and marketing people had never operated in an uncertain economy. So, for example, last week at our kickoff in Washington DC, I asked everyone to stand who started their sales and marketing career in 2010 or later and it was over half of the team. So they’ve never operated in an environment where money wasn’t cheap and investments were made to simply grow the top line with little regard for the bottom line. So the first thing that we did is uh we, we created um we, we took a book by Jeb Blount called Selling In a Crisis. And we asked each of our sales directors to take their team through a book club on that book. It’s a, it’s a good, it’s a great book. And I thank Tony Blasdell, our managing director in Australia who um made me aware of it, 20% of that book is around selling in an uncertain economy. Um 80% is sales foundation one oh one. So it’s a wonderful book for a sales team to review. So that’s the first thing that we did. We’re going through that now in this quarter, next quarter, we’re gonna take them through negotiation training. Why negotiation training? Um We wanna always be thoughtful to keep our sellers on their toes is what you say in North America and the UK. We want to keep them on their front foot and we know that in uncertain times, diligence increases, which means the sales process or sales velocity will slow down. Um We could be subject to um deeper sales discounts if we don’t stay on our front foot. So we want to put our sellers in a position where they’re confident in sticking to their proposal, confident in sticking to the timeliness of the um agreed upon sales processor or buyers journey and such. So those are the two big things that, that we’re taking them through. Likewise, we believe that the buying teams will only grow in this uncertain time because more stakeholders are gonna have to sign off on any investments when money is tighter.

Yeah, absolutely. And you actually kind of touched it there. I’ll include a link down to uh selling it across in the show notes below. And the, the final question that I wanted to ask you, Lauren was outside of that recommendation. Uh What is one book that you would recommend to uh to other revenue, revenue leaders?

I can’t recommend one. I have to recommend two if that’s OK.

I I’ll allow it.

OK. So the first one is Atomic Habits by James Claire, my daughter who’s in enterprise sales, uh was asked to read this at um Z Scaler and she made me aware of it and I, I consumed that and the thing that I took from that book is you don’t rise to the level of your goals but fall to the level of your systems. So me as the C R O again, you don’t rise to the level of your goals, but fall to the level of your systems. We hire great people. I need to make sure that they have a great system in which to operate and that influences my desire to take on more technology versus optimizing what I have et cetera. I wanna make sure I’m creating a good system for them. That’s also why I focus heavily on propensity data so that we can aim them towards the best targets. The second one is deep work by Cal Newport. Um A gentleman by the name of John Donovan, um recommended this book to me and I read it about two years ago and I’m remote from all of my people. Some are in Australia, some are in England. Many are spread across the United States and Canada. And when they are reaching out to me, they have a problem and before they can take the next step, they need my input or my counsel. So I make myself available at all times and even on weekends so that I don’t hold up their progress. What I’ve found in doing that and I’ve been doing that for years because my first mentor always took my phone calls. Um When I started out my sales career, what I found in doing that is it takes me a long time to get project work done. If I’m coming up with a new compensation plan, if I’m coming up with a new hiring profile, that’s deep work that you need to chunk time to do. If I dive in for 10 minutes and then I respond to that team’s message or I respond to that email, it takes me another 10 minutes to get back to where I was and what I find is that it takes me forever to finish that hiring profile. Whereas had I blocked time and spent blocked 90 minutes and said I’m gonna knock this out. I typically can get it done in 20 minutes if I’m not allowing distractions. So I have to make sure that my desire to be there for my people doesn’t get in the way with me chunking work and spending time to be more efficient and ultimately more effective. And I need to give them the permission to do the same thing. When I send a message, my expectation can’t be that they immediately respond.

I I think that’s an excellent recommendation. Uh personally love atomic habits and, and I think it’s particularly relevant, not just in day to day, but in that in the whole approach that we’ve kind of talked about through this, through, through this uh conversation, you know, you’re looking for the small things that work and then doing that consistently over time, even in small chunks, but also on the point of uh as, as particularly with deep work. Um and actually getting into, I would refer to it as getting into the zone, you know, if you need to put out in, in your world, a compensation plan in it, in, in my world, it might be um like producing a, a deck or a piece of collateral. And, you know, in reality, that might take hour or two hours to, to do but when you’re constantly jumping in and out before, you know, it, the whole day has passed you by and it’s still not finished. Whereas if you can tune everything out and actually focus and, and really dive into, uh, focusing on what you’re doing all of a sudden, I, I find even after that 20 minutes, it’s like, ok, I’m actually really zoned into this now and that’s where, you know, things like your Microsoft teams and Slacks of the world actually become a bit of a deterrent because it’s very, very easy to jump into. Uh you know, you might be trying to fight fires or to help people out. But actually, often oftentimes you just uh yeah, I, I think another, if I was to add a recommendation myself, uh would be the one thing which talks about prioritizing the things that are gonna have the biggest impact. And when you’re constantly fielding questions, particularly in a leadership role, it becomes very easy to get distracted. And it’s like, oh sh new shiny thing over here, great. I’ll go and do this and you end the day feeling productive, but um not necessarily feeling effective. Yeah,

I think that’s, that is, that is a great book. And I think we have to constantly remind ourselves, Lee that we are role models we can expect the people we work with to rise above the example or what we model and we’re, we’re, we’re constantly being evaluated from that perspective. Uh last week in DC. At our sales kickoff, we had uh a number of presenters. These are all wonderful, experienced talented people, but you had some people who presented some very long power point decks, many slides with a lot of words. And you had other people who used a slide or two and a lot of animation. And as I think about our sellers, I believe that the seller who uses less words, less slides, more animation, more conversational is going to resonate better with our buyer than the typical power point. So again, unless we model that for our sellers, they’re never gonna change what they do. So we constantly have to model what we expect. They shouldn’t say expect, we should model what we believe will help them become their best

Self. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose it’s also uh leading from the front and also proving that it works and to, to go back to what? Yeah, exactly. Right. You know, as you touched on earlier there, anecdotal examples of where stuff worked, you know, celebrating those. So I can see ha you know, writing an email, for example, that was three lines as opposed to, you know, 12 lines of it and showing how effective it can be is what people really engage with rather than, you know, here’s a 20 page slide deck on why this is important because I mean, in reality, you probably just lose them by the second slide Yeah,

I think Abe Lincoln said that I apologize for the length of the length of this letter had, I had more time. It would have been shorter.

Perfect. Um, and, and a, and a great, a great point to, to leave us on, um, Lauren. It’s been awesome to chat to you today and, and really start to get into the nuts and bolts of how, how you operate and for, for everyone listening. Um And if they want to reach out or we’ve got any questions, um whereabouts can they find you?

Uh linkedin is probably the best place to find me and to uh see what I’m sharing. And uh I would welcome any connections. I believe I can learn from anyone and I want to learn from everyone.

Awesome. We’ll uh we’ll put a link down to that down below. All right. Thank you so much again, Lauren and to everyone that’s listened to episode this week. Thanks so much. We’ll see you next week.

Appreciate it. Have a wonderful day.

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